Ali loses his mind after the Liston/Patterson rematch

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Ali loses his mind after the Liston/Patterson rematch

Duggerman
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After the fight, Ali came into the ring and straight up lost his mind. lol. Funny.
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Re: Ali loses his mind after the Liston/Patterson rematch

Entaowed
I never saw that sequence.  My thoughts on the video...

Patterson even if confident did not seem to have the stuff to win.
he was a boxer-puncher, & with Liston much longer & more powerful than him, he was unlikely to ever be able to slip or ship enough damage to even outscore Listin.  Who really did have a great chin.
Here is a classic case where they were about exactly the same height, but Liston's bone structure was just so much bigger.

Clay was crazy...Like a fox.
You could tell that the media really wanted a show, & to inject some energy, tension & controversy.
Clay created the excitement & fed them red meat.  

Then i rewatched the Liston-Clay title fight.  He was not quite yet Ali, but would be extremely shortly...

Thoughts:
                    Parallels to the recent Klitchko-Joshua title fight.

Yes AJ Wlad did not lose a lot-but in that case I think just enough speed & reflexes not to ber able to finish AJ.  

With Liston, his success-& formerly come incarceration-limited his rounds.  So he may have been rusty.
Though i do not think age had taken a lot either, & he looked to be about the same fighter that destroyed Patterson twice.

Clay just had such speed, reflexes, & enough length to handle Sonny.
Absolute peak Sonny may well have taken him, may well not have.
But peak to peak, I cannot see Liston beating Ali.

Ali had mucho courage to fight virtually blind for a while.  No boxer can be expected to continue under those circumstances.

Apparently the kid Clay made a monkey out of then champion Johanson in 1962.  In a sparring match.
Some style match ups are going to be almost insurmountable.
Clay/Ali was born to beat the big, relatively slow bruisers.
Evasive, stinging & deceptive power, unintimidated with a chin.

There will always be a question about how Ali could do against the best giants of recent years + today.
Though at least without all the holding allowed today-though Ali could do this too-I think he could do very well.

There are some match ups that I have grown less confident about over time.
Seeing how either guy might win.
Not Ali vs. Louis.
I just do not think the great Brown Bomber could catch peak Ali.
After WW2 & post-exile, I still think Ali would be able to win.

Though an absolutely elite swarmer could be either's achilles heal.





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Re: Ali loses his mind after the Liston/Patterson rematch

Leo the Lion
What an analysis. Wow bro, impressive as fuark. I tend to sometimes let my love for Liston overshadow my more rational boxing analysis (I used to box very similarly to him, also have a weird ape index reach. I'm 178cm tall, with a 194cm reach  ). You totally mad me realise that Sonny just wouldn't be able to take prime Ali. I always used to think Liston would take him and that he was just off due to inactivity and age. As much as I don't like Ali (I hate how dirty he was when he came back in 1970 with all that fucking holding. I still believe Foreman deserved that win and Ali should have been disqualified for all that holding. Smoking Joe should have also been defended by the ref better when he fought Ali - HOLDING EXCESSIVELY and behind the head too.) he had incredible skills before the layoff. Clay from the 60's was incredible I'll give you that.

I'm not so sure about Louis though... That man could crack, and you couldn't hold him. He was similar to Robinson, albeit way more flat footed. You couldn't hold those guys, they would wreck you if you tried - maybe why Baer and Schmelling didn't try to (holy shit at the final right hand that finished Schmelling). Also important to note Baer tried to put his left hand on Louis' forehead like ali, to keep distance and Louis didn't have much difficulty with that. Louis was also not one dimensional in terms of the bombs he would throw. He threw just as good a left hook as he did a right hand. Ali was extremely susceptible to left hooks.
Maybe Louis wouldn't be able to beat a Clay, but I believe he would slaughter Ali.
Leo Opperman: 200 - 225lbs (Amateur Boxer, Heavyweight/Super heavyweight) - 22 Years old, 13 Fights, 11 Wins, 9 KO's. Boxer Puncher. Former Bodybuilder who lost tons of muscle and decided to box like I used to before bodybuilding (started bodybuilding June 2016 again - at around 234lbs currently).
Father - Martin Opperman (Former South African Light Heavyweight Contender), Uncle Sebastiaan Rothmann (Former WBU, WBO, IBO Cruiserweight World Champion).
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Re: Ali loses his mind after the Liston/Patterson rematch

Entaowed
Thank you very much Leo!

Yes you have long arms, Liston's if measured correctly though were 11-11 & 1/2 INCHES over his height.  
of course a broad chest & long fingers helps...

I agree about Ali holding too much in the '70's-but mainly in his post-Manilla fights, other than Ali-Frazier too, when what he got away with was criminal.

That is a fair argument about The Rumble in the Jungle...Except he would have to be warned several times first.  The holding & especially pulling downward behind the neck could well have been the difference.

However, the ropes were not that loose.  And not intentionally so, they did not have the proper fit for the ring.
Also the size & mucho padding of the riong defenitely favored a slower slugger.
Thusd it is hard to know how each would fair under neutral physical conditions & officiating!

You make a good argument about older Ali.
though to have it be a fair comparison, apples to apples, it would need to be against a post war Louis-who had lost enough that I do not think he could take that Ali.

Baer did not hold because he rearely did, he was intomidcated-& broke his right hand early, in the second round of the fight.

Also while Baer was Ali's length, his skills & speed did not approach Ali's.

Schmelling was past peak by the second fight, & mainly Louis was better prepared & just too good.

Well...Ali was susceptible to the left hook, but still he absorbed tons of them, more than he would against Louis, when he fought Frazier.

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Re: Ali loses his mind after the Liston/Patterson rematch

Leo the Lion
I totally feel you bro. Thing is, can you imagine had frazier mixed up some right hands into his arsenal. I'm talkin bout real right hands, that land well timed with power. Of course Ali is favoured with his skill vs Louis. I meant to say prime vs prime with Louis and Clay - I do believe clay to be better than Ali if that makes sense. Maybe i just really like Joe Louis
Leo Opperman: 200 - 225lbs (Amateur Boxer, Heavyweight/Super heavyweight) - 22 Years old, 13 Fights, 11 Wins, 9 KO's. Boxer Puncher. Former Bodybuilder who lost tons of muscle and decided to box like I used to before bodybuilding (started bodybuilding June 2016 again - at around 234lbs currently).
Father - Martin Opperman (Former South African Light Heavyweight Contender), Uncle Sebastiaan Rothmann (Former WBU, WBO, IBO Cruiserweight World Champion).
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Re: Ali loses his mind after the Liston/Patterson rematch

Entaowed
I think we feel the same way man!

Though you know that Clay changed his name to Ali the day after he won the HW championship?
It is still debatable if during the last daaaaze of "Clay", he was better than peak post-exile Ali-which i call '72-'74.  

Though I believe we both feel that Ali got better & reached his absolute peak between '66-'67.
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Re: Ali loses his mind after the Liston/Patterson rematch

Joe Kingman
Administrator
In reply to this post by Entaowed
Entaowed wrote
Not Ali vs. Louis.
I just do not think the great Brown Bomber could catch peak Ali.
I think you're biased in favor of "The Greatest."

15 rounds is a long fight. You really don't think, in all that time, Louis would not lay a finger on Ali?

I agree that Ali wins most likely, but if Louis feints him or hits him with a combination it's a wrap for Ali. I agree Ali would win but it's crazy to think Louis doesn't catch Ali at all. He was no phantom.

-Joe Kingman
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Re: Ali loses his mind after the Liston/Patterson rematch

J.C.
In reply to this post by Entaowed
Entaowed wrote
Schmelling was past peak by the second fight,
I guess you didn't realize that Schmeling was past his peak in the first fight! He was 30 years old and considered washed up and not a threat. Louis was 22. Schmeling only whooped Louis cuz Louis didn't listen to his trainer.
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Re: Ali loses his mind after the Liston/Patterson rematch

Entaowed
I responded to this post, but it did not come through.

I know Schmelling was considered past his peak.  But he rallied, with his style & age he still could be peak-& was-in the first fight.

I agree that Louis was greater & lost due to not training adequately-including following his trainer's advice.
In this one sense, similar to the dynamics of the Tyson-Douglas match.
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Re: Ali loses his mind after the Liston/Patterson rematch

Duggerman
Administrator
Entaowed check the "surviving combinations" thread. This thread got off topic so I moved those posts.